Tony McGinn founded MCM Entertainment Group Limited at age 22 in 1983. Over more than three decades building MCM into a leading independent media company, Tony has acquired considerable experience in, establishing, growing and leading businesses in Australia, Europe and Asia, including listing on the ASX via an IPO. MCM’s operating businesses were sold in 2016, and now the delisted holding company is in an investment phase.
In 2002 due to personal experience, Tony became involved in leading a growing children’s cancer charity and driving associated fund raising activities. In 2004, Tony was instrumental in creating 'The Million Dollar Lunch’ and took on the voluntary event Executive Producer and Committee Chairmanship positions which Tony maintained for ten years. To this day The Million Dollar Lunch thrives as Australia’s most spectacular and successful fundraising event ($15M+ raised as @ 2016) benefiting the Children’s Cancer Foundation (CCF).
Today, as well as my Chairmanship of MCM Entertainment and Deputy Chairmanship of CCF, Tony harnesses his extensive experience, knowledge and networks to provide two specific services to business leaders:
- Principal of The McGinn Partnership which provides services in transformational HR based programs and reinforcement coaching in Business Development and Sales for business leaders and their teams.
- Melbourne Chair for global CEO peer mentoring company, The Executive Connection (TEC), and has launched a select group of SME CEO's/Business Owners where he provides 121 CEO coaching and facilitates monthly group meetings.
“Ideas without action will not get results” Tony McGinn
"Luck is preperation meeting opportuniy" Tony McGinn
My Story - Tony McGinn
I was Melbourne born and bred, the second son in a family of four children comprised of two sons and two daughters. My father was a banker from WA and my mother had come to Australia from England. I actually completed some of my schooling over in England during my teenage years, we moved for my father’s banking career during the 70’s but ended up back in Australia. I decided that the university pathway wasn’t for me, I was originally doing arts with the intention of becoming a landscape architect. During my time at RMIT I became involved in the running of the student radio station, the station consumed all of my passion and time. So much so that I failed my units, left university and went onto to follow my interest in radio and in the media more broadly. I then went into some different jobs within the commercial radio industry, including working for the station that people now know as KIIS FM. I then moved to 3AW where I was panel operating for the likes of Peter Gouch and Darren Hinch, some of the talent which went onto to become quite formidable over the decades. I then landed a job with Fox FM within the Sales and Promotions department. Fox FM had just started, it was an upcoming radio station when I was fired by the then Sales Manager some 12 to 15 months into the role. I was fired because he didn’t believe that I could sell, he was probably right at the time given that no-one had actually taught me how to sell.
It was at that stage, at the age of 21, that I came up with the idea of getting into media production and syndication. Less than 12 months later, at the age of 22 I started MC Entertainment which went on to become the MC Entertainment Group Limited. I ran that business from a blue-eyed naïve 22-year-old for some 33 years, surviving recession, global financial crisis and many other changes along the way. Last year we exited the last of our businesses, selling the last of our media operations to Southern Cross Austereo. At the age of 55, I have now started re-inventing myself, but am still drawing on an obviously very deep and broad media journey spanning over more than 3 decades.
Once you have had time to reflect, having finalised the sale of the media business in August of 2016, you can dissect the journey. A lot of the consultancy, coaching and mentoring work that I am doing now has helped me with the dissection of my own journey, as I pick it apart I break the business into 5 main phases. The beginning phase is the ‘sweat, grow and learn’ phase, it is a time of naivety, of passion, of assistance and probably one where there is too great a level of OCD. You then move into the ‘sweat and grow’ phase where much of the initial learning has taken place but where you are pretty much pushing a rock up a hill, you start to actually to manage a substantial enterprise whilst continuing to learn along the way. It is also during this stage that you need to learn how to manage other people, often you start with yourself, a partner or a friend. You then reach a point where you need to bring other people into the business and you need to develop the skills to manage those people. The third stage is the ‘learn and systemise’ phase when you start to implement systems which give the business stability and which allow you to reach beyond your grasp. Systems can be anything, they can be HR systems, operational systems, marketing systems or innovation systems just to name a few. Most of the systems that you build into a business revolve around people and the accountability of people. As you start to systemise the business, I liken it to the pouring of concrete between the foundational bricks. If you try and grow too fast and you haven’t yet built in these systems, that is where things can come unstuck. I would say for us this period occurred across the end of the 1980’s and into the early 1990’s, it was still very much an analog business then. While digital did not really come in until the late 90’s, the CD arrived during the late 80’s and we quickly adopted it. A CD is certainly a lot lighter than our big reels of tape, however we were still freighting our programs every week.
The fourth phase is one of bigger ambitions, you come to a point where you have reached the initial goal and are then looking at what comes next, you start to delegate authority and build a management business. Our phase four was expanding overseas, we had a foundation office in London where we were employing an ex-pat Aussie to do a lot of our interviews. He encouraged me to come over and have a look at the market, to look at how we could replicate what we had in Australia in London and even in Europe. We had feet on the ground in London and Europe by the time of the collapse of the Berlin Wall, we jumped on the bandwagon of the unionisation of Europe. In fact, we launched with our first program called ‘Eurochart’, a European version of Take 40. We ended up producing that program in 12 languages across Europe, we quickly became familiar with the challenges in doing so. You would write a script in English only to have it translated into German where it would take three times as long to read because it takes a lot longer to say things in German.
It was a particularly exciting phase for us as we did some incredible things in Europe. I was in fact sent by the board to Europe three times to go over and shut down our operations over there, every time I would return and tell them that I didn’t want to shut it down. When Australia fell into the grips of the great recession of the early 90’s, we picked up a great project across Europe with McErison and Coke called ‘Coke is music’. It was a significant $15 million USD project at the time, we ran it across 5 countries and because of the success of that project we were able to keep the Australian business alive during the recession. Although the Australian business was the original business and had always been the more successful, it was actually through the European operations that it was able to continue to operate.
As we moved through the 90’s and into the 2000’s, the world went digital. We were a content company developing significant amounts of content, we had expanded our operations into television content by this stage mainly within event and music television. We saw a real advantage in being a content company during the first cycle of the dot com, we got very excited about what we could do being a digital business. If you think about syndicating the television and radio programs, your radio and television stations are your gate keepers in that if they don’t want your programs then it never reaches an audience. But digital allowed us to reach an audience directly, we got excited about this and invested heavily in first streaming audio and then streaming video. We became a very strong digital business, we were the leading digital music business in Australia with our digital websites and streaming services. During this phase, you may also start to departmentalise or start other companies to do certain operations within a group.
Phase five is then focused on working out the future of the business, you start to look at whether the next move is entering new markets, buying, selling, merging or floating. We reached this phase at a point where we had been around for almost 20 years, we saw the chance to go from being a contained company servicing a known media ecosystem, to being an exponential business which can be borderless in a digital economy. As other digital businesses began to build, we recognised that we needed to build fast. If you look at any digital business at the time it grew fast and we knew we wanted to be a leader in this space, we knew that we wanted to be a buyer and not a seller. We wanted to grow and it was a time in which people had a great interest in selling their digital business for stock as opposed to cash, that way they too were going along for the ride. I realised that it was about buying digital businesses with stock not cash and that was the sole reason we listed on the ASX, we weren’t listing as a radio syndication company or a television production business, we were listing as a digital future who was going to aggregate digital businesses. In essence, media real estate. This is what we set out to do, there was just one mistake. We got the timing wrong, we successfully listed in December of 2007 and by March the next year the world had fallen into the GFC. As a newly listed company the market does not want to talk to you, everyone was selling everything. A lot of the breadth we had go in listing the company, dissolved down and consolidated because everyone was selling in the grips of the panic. Our share price did not so much drop as control remained with the majority shareholders, but we lost any chance of building liquidity in the stock. If you want to use a currency to acquire businesses, you need liquid stock whether it is going up or down it needs to be traded. It was literally 18 months before we got to start to talk to investment banks, stocker brokers and analysts about our plans. Whilst our timing was atrocious, the silver lining was that whilst we went into possibly the world’s biggest financial slump we came out debt free and cashed up. Because we had not been able to execute our original plan, being a public company we still had to do something. We did not have the option of sitting on cash for two years and earning interest, you have the pressure of shareholders who expect you to be actively growing the business.
We then started investing in digital technology that we saw as a gamechanger for media. We invested a lot of money in digital technology and we got very close to exiting that business with a tremendous ROI, sadly what happens in this space is you can’t just look at what is happening in your country, you also have to look at what is happening in the world. What was happening in the world at that time was that the big utilities were really starting to grow and takeover. The likes of Google, Youtube, Apple and Amazon were starting to dictate terms to the content industry as to what the future was going to look like. There are a lot of traditional media businesses who are now in a lot of trouble as a result of trying to resist this change. At the time, we were investing in the very technology that would resource those digital business models for media companies and in doing so we were very successful. We had a tremendous array of clients but we could not get the global critical mass. If you are going to play a digital game then you need to know the stage that you are playing on, truth be known if you are going to play on a global stage then you need much great access to capital and much larger brains at the table than what we had. Whilst there was an upside to listing the business, if I had my time again I would not have listed it. Talking to other businesses and entrepreneurs who have listed, if you want to play in the Australian market on the stock exchange, you need to be in the billion-dollar club. It is not the place for $50 million or $100 million businesses, we do not have a secondary market here as such so it is really hard to get attention on the stock exchange unless you are in that billion-dollar club.
It is during this phase that there needs to be a big concern with the idea of focus, companies are rarely great a doing lots of things, in fact most successful companies are great at doing just one thing exceptionally well. In deciding to move away from that core focus, the greater the risk of damaging their ability to perform that core competency and the more money, time and effort is chewed up. Of course innovation is essential to the survival of any business but it is about knowing what that one core competency is.
I recall a statistic of yesteryear where they used to talk about most small businesses failing within 7 years, I would argue that this has probably come down to 2 or 3 years given the number of digital start-ups and the level of disruption, however I am not sure of the current stat. There are many businesses that start and failure, however there are probably less consequences today as well, there would be many ideas that simply just don’t stick. Sometimes an idea should not be a business in its own right, maybe it should only be a product of another business. What we are seeing in this digital age is democratisation, anyone can do whatever they want. They can start a media business in a garage and broadcast to the world, something which was not possible in 1983 when I started MCM Entertainment. We were shipping kilograms of the tape needed to deliver programs to radio stations around the country via airfreight. When we started the core program we launched with, Take 40 Australia, was a 5 kilogram airfreight satchel for a 4-hour program. We had to deliver the pre-recorded program, including all of the ads, to the radio station who would then hand the courier last week’s program to return to us as the tapes each cost hundreds of dollars. We would then do what is known in the industry as ‘bulk erase’ the tapes by running a magnet over the tape, rendering the tape blank which we could then record the future programs on. The tapes weren’t disposable in the way that a USB or a flash drive are today, what those massive tapes held could now be contained on a USB. Last year, when we were transferring the business to Southern Cross Austereo, the programs were being distributed as digital files directly to the stations computers, the world has changed dramatically over the last three decades. Because of the barriers to entry that existed at the time, we had to learn how to distribute programming on a weekly timetable to 200 radio stations around Australia. This meant that often we spent our Friday afternoons on the phone to couriers, tracking where our programs were, sometimes they would be delivered a day late or on the morning of the day of broadcasting.
Once we built that distribution syndicate for that one weekly program, Take 40 Australia, we could then look at adding additional programs to the established supply line. We pioneered radio syndication in the Australia radio market and became the biggest producer of Australian radio programming pretty quickly, within two or three years of starting and which we remained up until we sold the business last year. When we sold the business, we were pumping out 40 hours a week of content that we had actually produced to over 200 stations around the country. There was some phenomenal content that we created and continued to re-invent over the years.
When you look at the five stages of business development, the sense of naivety and of passion during the initial stage is absolutely key. I encourage people starting a business today to approach it with naivety, if you speak to enough people they will eventually talk you out of what you want to do. Making mistakes is a real advantage when you are starting a business, there is a degree of research you need to do obviously, but a level of naivety only aids your creativity. When we were first starting, we were pioneering what is called ‘bartering syndication’ where you make the programming available to radio stations for no cash outlay and in return you would retain the sponsorship and advertising rights in the show. They could still place some ads in the show but you would fund your operation and the supply of the program through your direct involvement with the advertisers. Back then, you did not have large radio networks, they were all small independent radio stations so it was like creating a daisy chain of radio stations. To be able to take a program that was going to be cast to the audiences of 120 different radio stations to an advertiser was a valuable proposition, because for them to sit there and pay for advertising on 120 separate radio stations would be no mean feat.
I remember flicking through the phone book, searching for Coca Cola and ringing their office in Moorabbin Victoria. I pitched to them the Take 40 program, I remember the head of advertising promotions in Melbourne at the time, Paul Gardner, loved the idea but he quickly informed me that I had come to Coke Bottlers Melbourne. I had thought that this was Coke’s head office, that’s how naïve I was. He informed me that the head office was actually Sydney which was Coke from the US, but that there were actually 13 bottlers around the country. I asked him how it worked, he told me that the bottlers put in 50c of every dollar and Coke put in 50c of every dollar in the advertising formula. This meant for them to be able to run with something like what I was offering, I would need the 13 bottlers arounds Australia to agree to it and then I would need the Coca Cola company to agree as these were all the stakeholders that needed to give it the okay. He told me that luckily enough I was sitting in the offices of the second largest bottler in the country and that in turn they had a lot of swing. Paul then told me he was going to send me to the Sydney bottler and to the Coca-Cola company, telling them that he wanted to do this. Not long after I walked into the Sydney office, the director of the Australian Coca-Cola operations literally walked down the hallway and opened with the comment ‘I believe that you have something that we should be very interested in’. I couldn’t have asked for a better way to start a commercial relationship, it was my naivety and even maybe my stupidity that gave rise to that opportunity.
Coca Cola was one of our key clients for 12 years, we would have made more than $100 million from them alone, it was from Coca Cola that I learnt a lot about markets and marketing. My marketing degree was working with the Coca Cola marketing team during significant growth periods, particularly within international markets such as Europe. I started to question what Coca Cola’s core competency was, you may of course think it is the recipe or formula of coke itself. At first I thought it was the marketing of Coca Cola which is its true core competency. Interestingly enough though, I have seen Coca Cola prosper during periods of poor marketing. Their marketing has not always been great, they have had some significant failures yet they have still grown and prospered. From this I realised that their true core competency is simply distribution, regardless of whether it is Coke, Water, Fanta, PowerAde, Sprite or juice, once you have that distribution operation running on a global scale, you can run anything through it. As Coke moved away from distribution and started to move into unrelated areas such as acquiring movie companies, they quickly realised that they were not good at these new ventures which in turn quickly failed. They came to recognise that what they are truly good at is distribution, of course there are things that they add to that such as product development but it remains the distribution machine, that core competency which they have mastered worldwide which makes them such a powerful entity. This highlights the need to identify that one thing which your business is great at, only yesterday I heard for the first time a quote which sums this up perfectly, ‘be extraordinary at the ordinary’. In the area of distribution, this is exactly what Coca Cola has done.
When I reflect upon the 5 stages of business and how we responded to them within my business, the greatest lesson that I have learnt is to stay focused, not to expand too far out of your core competencies as you cannot be great at everything. There is a local story about Coke which I was first told when I visited the offices of their founding president in Atlanta where his office still exists almost as a museum today. The founding president of Coke was very close to the president of the USA at the time, during World War II. They were discussing amongst themselves the challenges of the war and the American president expressed his concern that he was really struggling to let America’s GIs know that their country is with them as they fight on the frontline and in the trenches. He wanted to find a way to provide them with a reminder of America’s support and of what they were fighting for on a daily basis, regardless of what front they were fighting on around the world. The founding president suggested that they best thing that he could do was put a bottle of Coke into every troops hand which is exactly what the American president did. It was in fact the American government which financed the development and construction of the bottling and distribution system of Coca Cola internationally. This is why Coke is bigger than Pepsi internationally, whilst within the States they are neck-and-neck, Coke slaughters Pepsi internationally because the government of America financed the build-out of Coke internationally in order to put bottles of Coke into the GI’s hands. It was one of the first global FMGC distribution systems in the world.
The move into philanthropy
I am very proud of what myself and others have done in this space, there are some fantastic people backing me. In 1997 I returned to Australia, following the birth of my first son, Benjamin, over in London. The day after his third birthday, Benjamin was diagnosed with leukemia. He was treated at the Monash Medical Centre by a wonderful human being Dr Browney. When you become the parent of a child diagnosed with cancer, you are catapulted into a world that is totally foreign, being a father and a successful businessman you hold that belief that you can always fix things. You are fixing problems on a daily basis and you start to build a thick skin, but suddenly you are faced with a problem you cannot fix. It was time during which I turned my back on the business and focused purely on my son’s health, it was a time that certainly took its toll on the family. We got through it, he was cured and has grown into a normal 20-year-old who just wants my car keys and my credit cards. During that journey, I realised as a business man that the system was not only imperfect, but in fact flawed in many ways. I started to ask questions, triggered further by my meeting of families who weren’t as fortunate as us. We met many families and many children who did not make it, when you are sleeping on hospital floors you get to know the other families really well. It becomes this community of people helping each other, so each time someone’s child didn’t make it, it was heart-wrenching. Blood cancers are an interesting type of cancer as for children they are now the easiest type of cancer to cure, the rates are now up around 90-95% but when Ben was younger it was more around the 80-85% mark. However, it is a long journey of often up to two years of chemotherapy and then the three-year waiting period to find out whether you are clear. It amounts to a long time spent in the system. The imperfection in the system drove me to get involved to see how I could improve it.
I began by joining a parent’s support group, Koala, a bunch of mums and dads who got together and started this self-group in the 90’s. As we pushed the hospital the group became more of an advocacy group. When the president at the time, Andrea Diprose, who is still on out board today, resigned following her son losing his battle with cancer, the baton was handed on to me. I realised very quickly that in order to be an advocacy group, you need money. Whilst banging on doors gets you sympathy, as a parent of a child fighting cancer, you need some political capital. We needed not only funding but reoccurring funding. Having been involved in the entertainment industry for the span of my career, I decided to utilise some of the contacts that I had made over the years.
When we were still living in London I had gone to the Nordoff-Robins Luncheon which is a lunch adopted by the music industry in London, made up of some amazing artists, directors and record labels, which is focused on fundraising and supporting autism. They have been able to use their music to help children with autism. When I went to their lunch I saw some phenomenal amounts of money made over a fun and boozy lunch. After seeing this I went to one of my long-term friends and one of the major shareholders in MCM Entertainment, Michael Bandinski and his wife Sue Bandinski. I went to them with the idea of replicating what I had seen at the Nordoff-Robbins lunch, utilising the whole entertainment industry given the much smaller music industry which exists in Australia. The plan was to develop an event which would be able to provide recurring funding for the foundation for the children with cancer. Sue not only embraced the idea but started introducing me to other people, huge names in the industry, we ended up with an amazing committee. We sat down with this idea of having a lunch, I thought originally aimed at raising a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Soon we had the ‘Million Dollar Lunch’, the idea being that if we had such an ambitious target, people would come. We held the first lunch where we raised $1,001,000.00. The interesting thing was that all we had paid for was the serving staff required on the day, the entire event including the food and beverages were donated. It was a highly effective fundraiser, with a lot of fundraisers the event costs as much to stage as what the event then raises. To put that in perspective, I ran the Million Dollar Lunch for 10 years and through the end of that decade we were able to get the AFL to agree that the office of CEO would be a patron of what is now known as the Children’s Cancer Foundation. What is now Gill McLachlan’s office, but even if Gill is not in it, that office is still patron of the Children’s Cancer Foundation. As our partner and Patron, the AFL office also takes on the running of the lunch which they began doing three years ago. This was great for the survival of the event given how much it was taking out of myself and others who had been running it for the ten years prior. In the first year that it was run by the AFL, the Million Dollar Lunch raised over $2 million in three hours whilst costing $0 to run. Meaning that the whole $2 million goes straight into the Children’s Cancer Foundation which only has four staff, the whole of the board are volunteers. We are now the single biggest funder of recurring programs, beside the State Government, in the Royal Children’s Hospital and the Monash Children’s Hospital. I like to think of it as we are the cotton wool that protects the families and the children as they go through the toughest journeys that they will face in their lives. The real reward is that we set up something that is now an institution in Melbourne, that is recurring and that has been an exciting journey in terms of being able to see the changes that we are making. I could not be prouder of what a great team of people have achieved. It was the 13th lunch this August, through the previous 12 lunches we have been able to raise over $16 million which is no mean feat.
Advice to self and others
I am a serial entrepreneur. Karl Lagerfeld once said that you have to re-invent yourself 7 times in your life, I watched a documentary on the History Channel about this concept. I don’t think that I could stand doing the same thing over and over again, if I look back over my media career I can see how I reinvented myself as the business moved from radio, to television, to event production, to marketing services and to media technology. There was a great amount of re-invention, some of it was very successful whilst some of it was not. You learn as much from your failures though as you do from your successes. I now take the retrospective view of remembering what you are good at and then leveraging what it is that you are good at. The further you reach outside of your knowledge area, the tougher the challenge becomes. This is particularly true within disruptive markets, disruption creates opportunity but even the disrupters can be disrupted themselves. Our media tech business was a disrupter but the bigger businesses then disrupted us in the end. You need to continue and re-invent yourself, but unless you are exiting businesses and creating new businesses, you want to remember what you are good at. If you take the Coca Cola example, if distribution is your critical skill factor, then innovation is obviously ensuring that your system remains world-class and continues to give you that competitive advantage. There is then a whole lot of innovation that can happen through that distribution network, you can leverage that distribution network by innovating and acquiring products for it. When Coca Cola stepped out and bought a movie company because it had decided it should be in the entertainment industry, they failed. They were no longer leveraging what they were good at. I am all for innovating and re-inventing, but you need to avoid losing focus on what your key skills are as an individual, as a business and as an enterprise.
Email is not management, do not manage through email. I always think of the analogy that if you go back to the very start of the company, we had a Telex machine which was how we communicated. We did not have Microsoft Windows or Apple. There are too many people sitting at their desks right now, managing their businesses by email. If you go back to the time where we used paper and a memo would be placed in an in-tray, think of how many pieces of paper would end up in that tray or on your desk in a single day. Now instead of these pieces of paper, we have people just cluttering up the system with emails. The habit that I learnt was the more emails that you respond to, the more emails that you will get in return. Therefore, you need to be really selective about who you email and what it is that you email them about. One of the lessons I learnt was through sitting on flights for business, you would just be longing to catch up on all your emails. If you speak to any person these days, they do most of their email catching up on planes where they will just pump out replies, believing that once they clear out their inbox that they are on-top of everything. They then go to bed as they are in a different time zone, only to wake up to find that there are now 400 emails in their inbox. By sending a response to each email, in turn every email will be responded to and sent back. As a leader you want to get the monkeys off your back, not on. It is important to minimise emails.
This wasn’t the first quote that came to mind but I think it is one which is most relevant to what got me through. I am not sure who originally said it, but very early on in my career I was told that ‘ideas without action will not get results’. Whilst it may sound overly simple, there is a whole lot of people out there who have a whole lot of ideas, the ones that succeed or fail are the ones that apply action to the idea. If you really want to pursue an idea, then you are going to do something about it every day and every hour, it will keep you awake at night if it is a good enough idea. There are a lot of dreamers out there but if you are going to turn a dream into a goal and then into a reality then you need persistent action. You can also link this concept with the age-old quote ‘luck is preparation meeting opportunity’.
Throughout my career my strong suit, other than being creative, was sales and business development. It was my strength in this skill in particular that I believe was behind the business growing and prospering in many different ways over the three decades. I am now consulting with businesses in the sales and business development arena, when we sold the last of the business last year I decided to move away from the media industry. I could have moved into another CEO position in media or could have joined boards but I recognised that media is in a tough place at the moment, it is heavily disrupted and has a long journey ahead of it in order to determine what it’s will look like. I also thought it was an opportunity to broaden my own horizons, I am consulting businesses in general in sales and business development, specifically looking at what I call performance protocol and performance reinforcement. There is a book that I am reading right now which I really am captivated by The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation by Matthew Dixon and Brent Adamson. It is based on comprehensive global research, there are plenty of spin doctors in the sales industry, but this book is about wholesale change and makes you re-think many of the common notions. It also means that a lot of people operating within sales and business development, should not actually be in sales and business development. It is a great book, anyone who is starting or leading a business should read it. The CEO of any business is that business’s core salesman, understanding the challenges of selling is of great value to any leader.
You can contact me on my email, email@example.com, which is my consulting business. Our website is still a work in progress at the moment but will be online shortly. You can also contact me through The Executive Connection which is the largest CEO peer mentoring network in the world with over 22,000 members from 16 countries. Here in Melbourne I am just launching a new group of CEOS and I am chairing that group, I am a chair for The Executive Connection or TEC as it is known. You can reach me through their website, tec.com.au.